Paul Carroll
I’ve long been a big believer in the power of design. My history with writing about technological innovation goes back far enough that I interviewed some of the original designers of the Macintosh computer, then watched as its ease and elegance let it outclass the computers built based on the standard set by the then-all-powerful IBM. Over the years, people have been learning that design considerations are powerful far beyond branding and individual products, which is why I wanted to talk to you about the design work you’re doing with insurance agencies.
Josh Levine
In insurance, people tend to think about design in terms of the user experience with consumer-facing apps and websites. Very rarely do people think of the agent experience or the broker experience or the employee experience. Most internal systems are overlooked, or at least are not top of mind. So agents wind up working with various carriers and being stuck learning and navigating these cumbersome systems.
We've been around for quite a while, and a lot of the original work, particularly 10 or 12 years ago, was with carriers. The work was mostly related to direct-to-consumer, claims tools, and all that. But over the last five or six years we’ve seen that start to shift. Now, about half of our work is focused on what I call the agent experience or the broker experience.
And that’s a big shift. It shows that the industry is starting to recognize something pretty important: When agents and brokers and other internal users have good tools, it doesn’t just make their lives easier. It makes them more efficient, keeps them loyal, and ultimately leads to better outcomes for the end customer.
The question is: How do you leverage design to make it easier for them to do business, plain and simple? How does one use design like Apple did, to make these systems kind of filter into their lives and feel natural? How do you design the stuff that people do on a daily basis?
This new emphasis on design for internal tools is refreshing. It’s a healthy shift because, while every agent and broker is familiar with well-designed consumer products—like their Apple Watch—they’re not necessarily clamoring for better interfaces at work. They’re not out there demanding, "We need better design!" But it’s encouraging to see more agencies and brokerages recognizing the value of better-designed tools and starting to focus on this need.
Carriers are finally starting to see that design and user experience are ways for them to differentiate themselves with agents and brokers, to be the carrier of choice.
Paul Carroll
I published an article not long ago about the talent gap that has so many people worried, with so many senior people retiring and with seemingly too little enthusiasm among younger people about taking their spots. The article said the best way to find new talent is to stop scaring it off through the sort of profusion of complex systems you’re talking about.
Josh Levine
We do a lot of research. We spend a lot of time researching and observing agents at work, watching the challenges they go through to get a policy issued or to process a claim. It almost feels like the complexity is intentional. Obviously, it’s not. It's no one's fault. It's the nature of a non-design-driven industry. You end up with these clunky, disconnected systems that don’t talk to each other—basically, the opposite of the seamless experience we’ve come to expect from well-designed products. It’s what happens when systems get built in silos over the years.
And you can’t expect the younger generation to use these old tools. They simply won't. Modern design is table stakes. Tools don't need to be game-breaking, but they need to make people’s jobs easier. The intersection of design and the business of insurance, how things get sold and how things get serviced, is so, so critical for recruiting and retaining younger talent.
Paul Carroll
Beyond the haphazard nature of the development of the systems agents and brokers use, are there other impediments to a design focus?
Josh Levine
The big, obvious misconception is that these tools are only about data entry—like all agents and brokers need to do is plug in information as fast as possible. But the reality is, these tools need to support more consultative work. You’re dealing with agents and brokers with a huge range of experience: Some have been in the industry for decades, while others are just starting out. Then you have assistants, junior agents, specialists—each with their own role and level of expertise. Good design needs to accommodate all of them, making it easy for anyone to find what they need, work efficiently, and provide value to their clients. It’s not just about speed; it’s about designing tools that adapt to different workflows, experience levels, and needs.
That's where digital can play an incredible role. Some of this is just common sense, like giving a broker or an agent immediate feedback rather than asking them to answer 75 underwriting questions only to then say, “Oh, nope, not eligible.”
So the big question is, how do you create a real dialog with agents and brokers? How can you use digital and design to give them insights? And for those newer to the industry, how do we layer in coaching and training to help them understand the nuances of the products they’re working with? The goal is to guide agents and brokers at every stage, whether they're seasoned pros or just starting out, making sure they’re equipped not just to enter data but to provide value to their clients in ways that feel natural and informed.
There are a lot of best practices for how to go about this. And there is a lot you can do to facilitate more collaboration—not just in the sense of multiple people working on the same job, but in creating tools that let agents ask questions and get feedback within their organization. You want to create the sort of environment you have when you’re sitting with someone and having a dialog, and you're saying, “No, no, stop right there. We can't write this. This won't be a good fit,” or, “Talk to Johnny over there.” Digital tools can mimic this experience by building in components that let people interact, ask questions, and share insights naturally. It’s about designing systems that encourage the same kind of helpful, real-time exchanges agents would have in person.
But the core systems out there are missing that layer of user experience, of agent experience, of customer experience. Humanizing the agent/broker experience is such a huge opportunity to move the industry forward. We obviously talk a lot about customer experience. But the customer experience and employee experience are connected. You can’t have a great customer experience without a great employee experience, right?
The CSRs [customer service representatives] need to know the right things to say and have the right tools. The agents need the right tools. They need to have the right education, they need to be equipped, or you're not going to be able to deliver on this great customer experience everyone's talking about.
Paul Carroll
You remind me of my early days on the copy desk at the Wall Street Journal. I was all of 22 years old, but I was surrounded by institutional knowledge. “Hey, George, how do we handle this?” “Hey, Joe….”
Josh Levine
You have to engage with the realities of the day-to-day work of agents and brokers. If they prefer using email or other digital apps and tools, you have to factor that into the digital experience you are designing, or they won't adopt it.
At the end of the day, they have to be able to do business and sell. They’ll either use your tool as intended, or they’ll find workarounds to bypass it. Getting the design right is challenging, but it’s essential if you want them to fully engage with the tools you provide.
Our first client was MetLife, and they actually flew us out to Japan to meet with folks who were just so passionate about helping the next generation of agents. These senior people had been agents at one time, but that was 10 or 15, or even 20 or 30 years ago. Being such an expert in this very complex, nuanced industry is an amazing thing, but the knowledge can also be a curse. The senior people make assumptions about the tools the younger people need and the features they’ll want, and how they use them. And the reality is that it's just a different world.
Our goal is to dismantle these assumptions by considering the “why” before the “what.” Through direct research with agents, we can avoid spending two years investing in a platform only to discover that agents won’t use it.
Paul Carroll
This is great, Josh. Thanks so much.
Embedded Insurance: A Major Disruptor
About Josh Levine
 | Josh Levine is the founder and CEO of Cake & Arrow, an experience design and product innovation company that works exclusively with insurance companies to create digital products and services that transform how insurance is bought, sold, and serviced. With a career spanning over 25 years, Josh is a seasoned practitioner of human-centered design, digital product strategy, and design thinking. Since founding Cake & Arrow in 2002, Josh has led innovation and design initiatives for more than 40 of the most prominent carriers, distributors, and insurtechs—including MetLife, Travelers, Aflac, Chubb, Amwins, American Family, and Unqork. A designer by trade, Josh inspires insurance companies to embrace design-driven mindsets and build meaningful relationships with the customers and employees they serve. He’s motivated to help traditional organizations unleash the humanity in their business and explore new ways of solving old problems. |
